(crowd)Funding SuperCollider development?

Development
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It means in the next years anyone who want to use the latest build of SC have to pay something like Ardour

Ardour was a very bad example, It’s a coercive software model using free software as branding. Apologies for the disruption but it pisses me off. Use Reaper, which is not free software but much more open and honest, for a decent daw. I will be very happy if people can make money with sc but don’t get mean. Like “don’t be evil”, “don’t get mean” would be a good slogan for music software developers.

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I also think as far as responsible accountabilty goes…

I am very at ease, and perhaps a vote may reveal unaniminity, if Josh and Marcín were to have full access to all forms of funding, and without necessarily having to consult the senate, congress, and the commander-in-chief… free of excess in process, if only transparency remains present.

Also worthy of a quick mention… the proposal, or implications involving righteous blacklisting, were in no way intended or directed towards anyone currently involved in this project, or this community, at large… it’s only… sometimes, it strikes a deeply rooted concern, that someone from beyond could potentially ruin, all we may cherish, & hold as sacred, in some way.

I would also further appreciate, and open to everyone’s discretion, if … James, could watch the vault, and perform the role of moderator / admin… James and James specifically.

At the same time, I don’t want him to be swamped with work, or, be excessively consulted… or in any way shape or form, the process to become difficult, convoluted, etc., for anyone of us… and I don’t believe any of the aformentioned (legendary…) should be forced into production, when anyone here could do so very easily.

However, I still feel we (all) would all be a lot more comfortable, with James having the master key, so to speak… the power to decline or retract funds, at sole discretion, and also, without necessarily having it as a requirement upon his approval or consult… so that the head of the dev team can move more freely, with all operations running smoothly.

It’s difficult enough in it’s suggestion, while treasuring all things with deep concerns, I’m sure the three of you can decide upon some sort of agreement, that works for everyone & involving.

While trusting whom it should be apparent in poessing greater judgement, and never failing everyone’s discretion, I feel compelled to warn against relying heavily on automated processes, or… processes involving large amounts, over purely inter-networked devices and interfaces… and furthermore… I feel equally compelled to say, and only from an equally deep and shared concern, it may still be an understatement, to suggest that one may be wise to maintain, & with ideally the utmost precision in understanding, that everything can be managed as some sort means to an end, the latter potentially absent of reflecting lies within.

Thank you for what you do for this.

Best,

,

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My apologies - I haven’t followed this too closely but I saw my name and thought it important to reply.
I think there are ways to do this to support new development.
I could never take money for this. I am getting more involved again, but really, I am the last person here who needs funding. (I do need time… that’s all I’m short of!).
I would honestly love to see this be the kind of thing where the funding could help support working artists and to help mentor new developers.
Since I don’t have an economic state in things (and I don’t think I’m the only one) I could see there being a few people in a similar situation as me who can help direct tasks / code review / etc.
Finally - in terms of paying developer rates, dev hours are expensive (which is why I’m privileged enough to say, because of my day job and a few other reasons that I couldn’t take compensation). Any sort of funding model would need to recognize this fairly and globally. And the actual numbers that would go into equating features and cost are not small, if we were to do this without exploitation … as open source mad community contribution, these lines are different than when compensation comes into play. I’m not saying it can’t be done right, but I’m many ways I think we’d also want to consider someone who plays a role as project manager and feature estimator. I know that sounds like a lot of red tape, but it also protects a number of people (from contributors to developers and users).
Thanks for the nod Rainer!

/*
Josh Parmenter
www.realizedsound.net/josh
*/

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Hey Josh, what’s up,

Respect.

To be clear, I thought you guys would be in charge, of exactly who to pay, or bring in, to tackle specific issue / upgrades.

Is it off key… to… trust combined instinct, wisdom, power, the dev team, trust know who/what to trust, offer, reject… when how if not or discuss amongst ourselves… funds growth safe advance & at right front, careful pay solo expert dev at module size rate, out steps in, gets through the difficult, clean modular + comments, a week or a weekend, paid, exits, enter dev team studies, learns, discuss, adapts, absorbs, in-pursuit, empowering not only SC, but our skills & within, advancing not just SC, but our ourselves.

?

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everything can be managed as some sort means to an end, the latter potentially absent of reflecting lies within.

That’s not quite right in my experience, the “end” will be burning inside out. I’m certainly concerned with some statements in this thread. In any case, there should have to be some kind of, preferably rational, institutionalization following established laws and social consensus that foresee and prevent the consequences that cause your irrational fears that lead you to act by preventive verbal punishment and, ambiguous enough, resignation to what “lies within”. [Edited bad redaction] I simply do not agree that the end justifies the means because, in fact, it defines them. Take it easy, think more positively.

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I think the GSoC model works well. A relatively low-cost internship, where the mentor is a volunteer, and the student (for GSoC, they have to be a student) gets paid work for a couple of months while getting valuable experience and contributing to a free/open source project. It relies upon mentors who can work for free, or whose time is sponsored by a company/institution. Using Open Collective for this would bypass having to deal with google itself.

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More and more this sort of discussion (as well as other issues) make me think it might be time to think about a foundation for SC. This would provide at least provide a structure for accountability, transparency, etc.

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How do foundations work in projects similar to SC? I can only think of the processing foundation, but I don’t know anything about the specifics.

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I’ve tried but could not find clear/historical organized info about this…

I would like to understand how the size of the project impacts this issue. Regarding software for creative usage, I would like to understand how Blender, Processing and OpenFrameworks manage their funding and development, since all of them seem to adopt utterly different models.

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It would be really a shame to make this a very complicated matter open to power struggles.

I’m happy to contribute to some floss projects through OpenCollective - like OwnCast for example. I also donate to Ardour via their subscription. I actually don’t care who gets the money, as long as it’s “people involved with the project one way or another”. Also financial support/donation is not shopping - in my view. I also don’t get people who are upset about getting or not getting perks when they subscribe to someone on Patreon. Either support the artist/project or don’t. Period.

I guess there are important nuances in different projects, - how they are run, how fluid they are in terms of devs comming and going…

It might be useful to look at how FunkWhale project is being run. They setup some form of coop/association/non-profit, they are using Loomio for collective decisions, and they receive some funding via OpenCollective but they also got funding from another fundation for a year and a half - I think. They main dev is slowly stepping down.

What seems to make developments like this ful of drama are different expectations. I personally don’t expect to have a specific bug fixed if I donate to a floss project. So expectations of those who donate, and expectations of devs - perhaps somebody who wants to really dedicate a lot of time to fixing bugs or writing/fixing documentation should be really clear about their expectations if and how would they receive a portion of funding. Also there are different needs and levels. Some people don’t need any pay for their contribution, while for some a financial compensation would mean a huge difference in their lives.

I think these things should be tackled with a lot of patience and clarity in communication.

I would personally wish for transparent, accessible, cooperative organisation structure with democratic governance, that would stay simple (as much as possible) and would be resilient to takeovers by single actors. maybe also Debian project and its governance can be an interesting example?

* also, I would wish folk would not use the term blacklisting, but rather blocklist or denylist. [1]

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Two more cents on the discussion.

After two recent ideas here:

I propose that we organize a list of academic institutions that use SuperCollider and that could eventually host a foundation.

As @muellmusik mentioned, I has evaluating Processing Foundation structure which consists of:

1 - Executive Director
1 - Education Community Director
1 - Programs Manager: Fellowships & Programs
1 - Program and Communications Coordinator
1 - Finance Manager
4 - Project Leads
3 - Mentors
5 - Directors (Board of Directors)
9 - Advisors

And now some points that I am trying to estimate:

  • SC community seems to be 1/25 of Processing community size (measuring by the most viewed video on YT 1M of Processing vs 40k in SC).
  • Processing Foundation develop several different actions more than supporting a programming language that would be difficult at first for a SC foundation, e.g. fellowships, festivals, etc.
  • Although Processing maintains three big branches (java, javascript and python), it is wrapped around comercial GPL. The scope of SC seems to be more ambitions since it relies both on developing a new audio server as well as new programming language.
  • Processing 3 → Processing 4 (mainly a java 11 update, but not only) does not included the same amount of breaking changes that SC3 → SC4 would include.
  • SC has more contributors on github than Processing 3 (209 x 117).
  • The initial creators of processing seems to be actively maintaining currently, which is not case for SC.

Many questions here: how different is SC dev workflow from the Processing one? (I have no idea since I am a user).

Would it be possible to bring people that were part of initial developments of SC back? I don’t want to personalize this, but on Github contributor list there are many people that made tons of contributions in the past, but none nowadays. Is it possible to have these people back?

Can we have help from other pro audio FLOSS devs from other communities? Again, I don’t want to personalize, but is possible to have improvements, ports, etc from people like Jatin Chowdhurry, DragonFly reverb, Reaper, Ardour, Jack, etc?

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I think a more reasonable governance model might be to develop an institution independent of any specific university, but include major programs that want to give resources or funding in any board / advisory structure. University budgets and curriculum feel too fragile to base a long-term project on, and it would be useful to pull in new institutions as they appear.

Somewhere between unlikely and definitely not. Some left because their interests simply diverged - maybe some of those folks would return, but a good chance they would not simply out of lack of interest. Some left because of fundamental disagreements with the community or bad-faith interactions that made them no longer welcome - a few might return if there was an interesting project where they felt confident they had an environment where they could actually succeed - but most would be very unlikely to come back, and it may not even go well if they did.

On the flip side, I think we have lot of deep expertise in-house that is under-utilized. The “core” dev team is functionally more of a maintenance team, and could probably do more substantial work if some of the daily bureaucratic duties were lessened. I can think of at least five or six people around here who have the experience necessary to take on deep, generational changes to SuperCollider but don’t do so either because they don’t trust current processes for making big changes, and/or simply don’t have the time to do that work in an evenings-and-weekends format. I’d gladly drop my day job for a while and work on big-ticket “SuperCollider 4” style features, but I have to pay rent…

I think organization help would be good. In terms of programming topics, again I think we have most of the knowledge and resources we need, we just need to be able to marshal them. I’ve been keeping a list of all the “SC4” topics in that thread, and we have at least 2 developers around who could confidently tackle any one of those issues if we help facilitate that and, probably, pay them for the hundreds of hours it would take.

I think there is a huge space for incremental change here. An entirely “new” language or audio server is almost for sure unnecessary - but there’s lots of space swapping out one new “piece” of the system while leveraging the stability of the rest, especially if we can resolve some fundamental problems like a general plan for backwards/forwards compatibility, and a better process to make decisions about architecture and API design.

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Is it possible to have these people back?

In my case: absolutely not.

The existential problem is not funding, but governance, and that’s now (at least) the 3rd competent person gone from this project to say that. We didn’t care as much about getting paid as we did about getting things done without suffering procedural abuse.

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How is the Processing Foundation funded?

I suspect a few people might be tempted back if the conditions changed in the right ways for them. Some who left because of bad experiences probably not. Some moved on for life reasons, ie big jobs, families etc changing in ways that didn’t allow the same commitment. Some might be willing to work on clearly defined tasks, and pay won’t hurt of course! But as Scott says, there are very talented devs involved now. So I’m not sure getting people to come back needs to be a main focus.

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So I took a look. I don’t know if anyone has more info on this, as there’s little info on their page, but it looks like maybe a lot of individual donations and some support from places like Mozilla, NEA, and partnerships with relevant institutions and education groups.

I wonder to what extent the governance work of the foundation is essentially volunteer? This may be something where institutions could easily be of use, as IME it’s not too hard to justify this kind of involvement for staff. With several involved and a flexible structure that should make things more robust.

The activities go far beyond just dev work. That seems to be mostly facilitated through a series of annual fellowships targeting specific exciting additions (although most of their fellowships seem more focussed on education, outreach, and artistic stuff). How longevity and ongoing technical debt are handled once dev related fellowships are over is unclear.

So I think something like this could work for SC. I think it would be nice to spread ‘hosting’ across lots of sites/partners, and try to keep governance cost as low as possible with in kind labour where that’s feasible and where the people involved have privileged situations. I suspect to attract support this would need to go far beyond dev support in similar ways to PF. That would be a good thing though, and I suspect would improve the dev situation in a number of ways.

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I don’t think this is registering with people, and I’d like to expound on my version of it:

  1. One reason I left SC dev is because I saw multiple large-scale positive changes systemically and aggressively blockaded.
  2. For the long-term health of SC, there are numerous components that need to be either entirely removed or at least excised from core and relegate to third-party maintenance.
  3. Because of #1, it is impossible for anyone to push forward a decision to remove a component. (I once lightly proposed retiring the SCIDE and I was immediately lectured about how “hard work went into it and we need to respect that.”)
  4. The scope of SC can only expand, never contract, and maintenance can only become more burdensome.
  5. Development is entirely spent putting out fires that ultimately are products of scope creep. This was a tremendous motivation killer for me as a dev: slogging through technical debt with no power to address long-term health.

Starting a foundation does nothing to address these problems. These are fundamental issues that are largely being ignored in this conversation.

I don’t have any experience with funding open source projects, but the Abjad developers told me that they have never accepted funding because donors always want something specific in return. From what I’ve seen, academic orgs generally want new features, not the removal of old ones, so it could worsen the problem.

I and several other SC contributors have independently concluded that the situation is largely unsalvageable, and the only viable solution is a ground-up rewrite.

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A significant contributing factor to why I don’t contribute more to the core. I spend all day tip-toeing around legacy code and technical debt at work, I just can’t justify doing the same in my spare time, for my own sanity. I did this for many years in SC, and I’m happy with a few of the things I achieved, but it wasn’t sustainable or fun.

It doesn’t solve them easily or automatically, but it definitely provides a potential path to solving them. The kind of work you’re talking about - spot fixes to reduce maintenance cost, extracting unnecessary components to external modules, decoupling to reduce dependencies - are totally normal parts of software development. They’re just thankless and boring and hard to build consensus on (you and others are well acquainted with this…), so it’s unlikely anyone is every going to do them as a one-off volunteer project for funsies (especially when compounded with the history SC has of overly contentious discourse around dev topics).

But you’re right that the solution is not JUST to drum up a little funding. The model, especially with something like SuperCollider, is to bring in lower level developers to help out with maintenance and small fixes, in order to slowly build their skillsets and allow people with more domain expertise to focus on larger-ticket generational features. If you can make it interesting enough for new contributors then you have an escalator that can hopefully withstand people leaving once in a while. SC is quite bad for this: the barrier for entry is quite high, and we haven’t done a good job at giving new contributors a feeling that they at least might get to work on something cool or interesting, so we have a bunch of abandoned PR’s and all the people that have the energy and expertise to bigger foundational changes are either burned out or doing things like fixing CI outages.

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I think that the creation of a foundation can help with this governance problem. What I am not sure if there is enough people to maintain it.

I understand that there are big problems and breaking change decisions in which consensus is impossible. In this case why not to choose a purposeful divergence model?

I guess Pd faced the same dilemma years ago with PD-Vanilla vs PD-Extended vs Purr Data. Why not to split SC into a “experimental” branch with radical modifications and a more stable one with the traditional development workflow? Maybe this is the most peaceful path?

PS: same thing kind of happened to Jack1 and Jack2… What can we get out of these?

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If SC 4 is gaining tracktion one day – not at all sure if this ever happens, as it was suggested already more than 15 years ago – I also assume that this would be the way to go. It would be a shame to disrupt an ecosystem that is right now – by all objections – capable of amazing things that can hardly be achieved with anything else out there. On the other hand, I understand, the need for perspectives is urgent …